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Post by Jimi on Aug 27, 2019 15:02:41 GMT
[Note this is a personal post and does not necessarily reflect the views of the team]
I feel compelled to post a few words about us already being tarred and feathered by some individuals on the Facebook page for publishing a EULA to protect the intellectual property we have created as regards its quality and ownership. It seems that they have mis-construed our purpose, in addition to commenting about aspects of our as-yet unseen content. So let's try and clarify things...
In particular the following (quotes) cause me to respond:
“…its unfair that we need "Written Consent" to make things like reskins...”
You don’t – read the EULA again carefully. The consent refers to approval to upload, because we want to track what is created and where it is. And that it is of appropriate quality. I propose a simple measure of that quality later. Keep reading.
"… some of the texturing could be better in places and I honestly think the community could do great things with their stock if these weird boundaries weren't in place. It seems pretty weird to me and frankly makes the team a bit unpopular in the community.”
The above makes a number of assertions that are unfounded, especially as they comment on something not yet seen or experienced – bar a few screenshots. The writer also purports to speak for a community that could do “great things” with our stock (7 trains, as yet unseen). What “great things”? We built them as accurately as we know how, and with significant visual and operational details. And how has this made us "unpopular" in that community? (And I’m puzzled that a self-proclaimed content creator would find protecting ones creations as “weird”.)
I’d like specific community names, so I could talk to them directly and understand the community’s issues. Because the EULA is carefully worded to ALLOW people to contribute in a controlled manner. We have simply required that we review what is being created and know where it is. To that end we have required people to get our permission to upload a revised version of our work (re-skin, or whatever) so we are aware of it and have “blessed it”.
If the “community” cited above is of people who have good skills and have passion for the subject matter as we do, then I believe we would welcome their contributions with open arms. We do, however, feel it appropriate that we manage what content is uploaded, and that it is of appropriate quality. How to judge “quality” fairly?
I propose simply that if you create something that would not look out of place on the District Phase II then we would be highly likely to approve it.
I would also suggest that if you are contemplating creating an alternative version of something in the route or stocks, that you let us know. The eagle-eyed among you noticed a pre-refurb D78 hiding in the rear of one screenshot. You could reasonably conclude we’re planning other pre-refurb trains, to be released as an add-on at a later date.
We have spent YEARS creating this stuff, with passion for the subject matter and determination to get it right. I think we actually built it for us. We did, however, at a very early stage decide we would share it with people who echoed our passion for LUL. And that it would remain free of charge. Those things remain true. And we thank those many of you in the VDL community that have supported our efforts for those many years. |
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 28, 2019 21:19:46 GMT
You Want Specific Community Names?
I am one of them... and im not the only one who has an issue with your EULA. I know your probably going urghhh behind your computer that oh... its you again... but im not the only one who as an issue. actually i know an entire group who has issues with your EULA
PM me.
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the entire ts community
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Post by the entire ts community on Aug 28, 2019 21:36:35 GMT
We get that you have spent literally years creating this stuff, but the impression you are giving the entire community is that you don't want anyone to improve your content which will further spread your name within the community. If you want to be part of the community you must be willing to accept criticism in the form of mods. If you don't want to accept this, then simply remove the VDL from your website.
Instead of being a degenerate and inadvertently accepting that others can do a better job than you, act like the grown men you are and quit arguing with the face of the community.
Lastly if you are so upset over people creating custom content from your work, REAL companies such as Armstrong Powerhouse and Dovetail Games create content for a profit, do they have a problem with mods? The answer is no, because they know how to interact with a community correctly.
I can tell you for a fact that several people will and are making mods of your content, there's nothing you can do to stop the community from that. I strongly suggest instead of complaining about it, you embrace it or otherwise this will just keep happening, it's your call.
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Post by Xavier on Aug 28, 2019 21:49:11 GMT
We get that you have spent literally years creating this stuff, but the impression you are giving the entire community is that you don't want anyone to improve your content which will further spread your name within the community. If you want to be part of the community you must be willing to accept criticism in the form of mods. If you don't want to accept this, then simply remove the VDL from your website. Instead of being a degenerate and inadvertently accepting that others can do a better job than you, act like the grown men you are and quit arguing with the face of the community. Lastly if you are so upset over people creating custom content from your work, REAL companies such as Armstrong Powerhouse and Dovetail Games create content for a profit, do they have a problem with mods? The answer is no, because they know how to interact with a community correctly. I can tell you for a fact that several people will and are making mods of your content, there's nothing you can do to stop the community from that. I strongly suggest instead of complaining about it, you embrace it or otherwise this will just keep happening, it's your call. Would you consider relaying that same speech to Thomson Interactive then? There's seldom difference with what has been asked of the community by them in the past and what is asked of by this EULA now.
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the entire ts community
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Post by the entire ts community on Aug 28, 2019 22:18:59 GMT
We get that you have spent literally years creating this stuff, but the impression you are giving the entire community is that you don't want anyone to improve your content which will further spread your name within the community. If you want to be part of the community you must be willing to accept criticism in the form of mods. If you don't want to accept this, then simply remove the VDL from your website. Instead of being a degenerate and inadvertently accepting that others can do a better job than you, act like the grown men you are and quit arguing with the face of the community. Lastly if you are so upset over people creating custom content from your work, REAL companies such as Armstrong Powerhouse and Dovetail Games create content for a profit, do they have a problem with mods? The answer is no, because they know how to interact with a community correctly. I can tell you for a fact that several people will and are making mods of your content, there's nothing you can do to stop the community from that. I strongly suggest instead of complaining about it, you embrace it or otherwise this will just keep happening, it's your call. Would you consider relaying that same speech to Thomson Interactive then James Northcott? There's seldom difference with what has been asked of the community by them in the past and what is asked of by this EULA now.
What are you going to do if someone dare makes a mod of your content and publishes it. IP ban them from your website and 'not offer them help'? That's pathetic. People are making mods of your content which is free, we all know you are afraid someone will make content better than yours. Do you not want them to? Put your own content behind a paywall or on ATS. I can't believe I am having an internet argument with fully grown men lmao. Go ahead, whine about it on Facebook, I'm sure there are people there who care... |
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Post by Eddie on Aug 28, 2019 22:34:13 GMT
I'd love to see someone make content better than ours. In fact I'd love it................ just point me in that general direction and lets all see it. We're not grown men, we all wear short trousers like you, and we definitely don't whinge. Is this an argument ? Nothing much to argue about here. We published our EULA, you ( the whole entire ts community ? really ? don't like it. Maybe it's not worth releasing this update to the route after all. It's just too much agg in my view. Happy now ? Then you can create whatever you want.
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 28, 2019 22:44:16 GMT
I'd love to see someone make content better than ours. In fact I'd love it................ just point me in that general direction and lets all see it. We're not grown men, we all wear short trousers like you, and we definitely don't whinge. Is this an argument ? Nothing much to argue about here. We published our EULA, you ( the whole entire ts community ? really ? don't like it. Maybe it's not worth releasing this update to the route after all. It's just too much agg in my view. Happy now ? Then you can create whatever you want. Its not that hard to literally just look at every other devs "EULA" and see that making mods isn't the end of the world or your reputation, as this person has said you dont see AP or DTG or even JT doing what your doing. Revise your EULA and this whole argument will stop. Allow us to create mods for your content and you wouldn't of wasted 11 years on your route and trains. Your Route will spread better too and more people will play with it. You want to see a version of your modified D Stock? Here you go! On my own route too. Your Route is freeware too. Get used to the TS Community or leave it. We Create and Modify everything turning it into something refreshed or new to add to our own creations. Its time you learned who we are. Its not MSTS Anymore. And for the record. I've added Rail Clatter and Motor Whine Sounds. Checkmate. |
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Post by Eddie on Aug 28, 2019 22:50:14 GMT
Can you please list what mods there are: it looks like the exact same train we built. Same cab,same everything as far as I can see. Maybe a couple of extra sounds. To my mind that is like waxing a car and saying you've restored it from the ground up.
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Post by SamT on Aug 28, 2019 22:50:15 GMT
I'd love to see someone make content better than ours. In fact I'd love it................ just point me in that general direction and lets all see it. We're not grown men, we all wear short trousers like you, and we definitely don't whinge. Is this an argument ? Nothing much to argue about here. We published our EULA, you ( the whole entire ts community ? really ? don't like it. Maybe it's not worth releasing this update to the route after all. It's just too much agg in my view. Happy now ? Then you can create whatever you want. Its not that hard to literally just look at every other devs "EULA" and see that making mods isn't the end of the world or your reputation, as this person has said you dont see AP or DTG or even JT doing what your doing. Revise your EULA and this whole argument will stop. Allow us to create mods for your content and you wouldn't of wasted 11 years on your route and trains. Your Route will spread better too and more people will play with it. You want to see a version of your modified D Stock? Here you go! On my own route too. Your Route is freeware too. Get used to the TS Community or leave it. We Create and Modify everything turning it into something refreshed or new to add to our own creations. Its time you learned who we are. Its not MSTS Anymore. I mean I would not really care if you updated your route or not, but you should at least understand the fundamentals here. Written rules aren't really going to stop people from doing things over the internet, that's like asking people not to pirate content on the internet and leaving it there expecting them to obey your rules. |
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Post by Eddie on Aug 28, 2019 22:56:39 GMT
Then why make such a fuss about it. Grow up and respect other peoples wishes. It's a EULA. I doubt if the FBI will get involved. Your mess, you deal with it.
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Post by SamT on Aug 28, 2019 23:06:53 GMT
Then why make such a fuss about it. Grow up and respect other peoples wishes. It's a EULA. I doubt if the FBI will get involved. Your mess, you deal with it. I'm not the one making a fuss here, I can hear that a lot of the audio in that video has been improved. (in a non-malicious tone) In case you weren't aware I have a decent amount of experience with creating audio in TS. I can clearly hear that a load of the audio has been upscaled in quality (high sampling frequency, etc...) if not replaced with custom clips. With all-due respect I believe it would be beneficial if you took notice of the improvements being made here. I'm no hardcore developer but I would see this as a window of opportunity. |
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 28, 2019 23:18:02 GMT
Then why make such a fuss about it. Grow up and respect other peoples wishes. It's a EULA. I doubt if the FBI will get involved. Your mess, you deal with it. Eddie, Your Being Hypocritical Here. Your Making the Fuss Occur in the first place by implementing certain unnecessary rules in your EULA. Never has a Train Sim / Rail Sim / RailWorks Dev been so stingy with Third Party Modifications to their products. You Told me it was "reverse engineering" to make a reskin of the D78 in an Unrefurbished Livery. All We Ask is you to redo your EULA Allowing Freedom to all third party modifications such as reskins, sound mods and script mods eg actual Driver Door Operation as not only does it give the community a better experience but it will benefit the Mod Maker and your Route / Rolling Stock more out there to other members of this community. Grow up and respect other peoples wishes to make mods. TS Is one of the most modded games out there which adds replay-ability + better content available to the community. I have 3K Hours on this game. The Game hasnt got boring because of the content we made for ourselves + others. All we're asking is for some Dignity towards modifications and this can all be behind us so you can set VDL Phase 2 for Release as im sure people would love to reskin the C Stock into the Prototype with the top being blue and bottom being white. Your Missing out on a bigger audience because you refuse to have us make mods to the rolling stock. |
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Post by Jimi on Aug 28, 2019 23:20:15 GMT
Oh good. Now we have 3 apparent members of the Mutual Admiration Society here. And you hide behind fake names, insult us and make threats. And suggest it's time we learned who you are. I think your words and actions have told us all enough about exactly who you are.
And I just loved the "learn to accept criticism in the form of mods". Best definition of plagiarism I've seen yet.
Can one of you point to one original thing you have created? URL? I guess if you could create original content you wouldn't have to modify others work...
And all this over a EULA that was modified. Oddly the old one said much the same and I don't recall "the community" (or those who claim to represent it all) throwing a tantrum...
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Post by SamT on Aug 28, 2019 23:28:56 GMT
Oh good. Now we have 3 apparent members of the Mutual Admiration Society here. And you hide behind fake names, insult us and make threats. And suggest it's time we learned who you are. I think your words and actions have told us all enough about exactly who you are. And I just loved the "learn to accept criticism in the form of mods". Best definition of plagiarism I've seen yet. Can one of you point to one original thing you have created? URL? I guess if you could create original content you wouldn't have to modify others work... And all this over a EULA that was modified. Oddly the old one said much the same and I don't recall "the community" (or those who claim to represent it all) throwing a tantrum... Alright at what point did I threaten you? I'm trying to work with you, not against you. You want an example of original content? Here you go. Audio recorded, edited and created by me (And to be released as freeware in the future): |
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 28, 2019 23:31:35 GMT
Oh good. Now we have 3 apparent members of the Mutual Admiration Society here. And you hide behind fake names, insult us and make threats. And suggest it's time we learned who you are. I think your words and actions have told us all enough about exactly who you are. And I just loved the "learn to accept criticism in the form of mods". Best definition of plagiarism I've seen yet. Can one of you point to one original thing you have created? URL? I guess if you could create original content you wouldn't have to modify others work... And all this over a EULA that was modified. Oddly the old one said much the same and I don't recall "the community" (or those who claim to represent it all) throwing a tantrum... 3? I'm sorry but "fake names"? im not gonna put my full birth name, date of birth and address in my name? I aint making threats or insulting anyone... if anything this is hypocritical and what do you mean by learn who we are? I dont see plagiarism unless you give proof we "plagiarised" this. Jimi, If you look up and stop ignoring the point you would see I told you benefits for you if you amended your EULA to allow modifications to your stuff. once again.. heres a link of a wip London Based Metro Route I am making for TS. Its really easy to fix this, we wouldn't of have to waste our time arguing. Will you ever budge and just strike an agreement to allow mods to be made... |
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Post by Jimi on Aug 28, 2019 23:54:07 GMT
Nice work Sam (I'll assume that's your name). You have my respect for that audio work, for whatever that's worth. And you seem like a reasonable guy to talk to, so I'll share a few thoughts.
What irks me is not that folks want to "mod" what we create (frankly that is in some ways flattering that they show interest in the content), but that they have assumed without actually seeing/hearing it that it needs modding. And that we owe them the right to do that - before we've even released it. All you folks are still looking at was not even a Version 1 of VDL It was frankly thrown over the wall, and thankfully most of it worked and LUL fans liked it. Phase II is very different. Total re-work of the tracks and scenery. New route sections. All new signals. Rework of the stocks appearance and audio and control systems. Now 7 trains total. 18 scenarios plus Quick Drive. Tested to hell and back. Single file automated installer. Hopefully you see we feel we have invested a lot of ourselves in this. The best we know how. And that is not to say we can't imagine anyone could improve it - doubtless there are those more skilled that us who could tweak. But we would appreciate folks at least taking a look and seeing, and hopefully appreciating, what we have done before they rip it apart. If the more hot headed among you would simply re-read the EULA and realize it does NOT prevent modding, or upload of quality modifications then all this shit storm could have been avoided. I personally started this thread - not the team. It was in response to comments on FB, and my goal was to show how we wanted to work with folks - not to prevent them. Do you feel it's fair we request mods of appropriate quality? I would hope a good modder would reply YES I do that! And my simple "test of quality" was that it not look out of place on Phase II. Too much to ask for? And that we know where they are downloaded from? Unreasonable? What if we put out an update that breaks your mod? Isn't this all a part of working together in a respectful manner? Thanks for reaching out Sam. Respect. But to those who threaten to take what we created regardless of IP and and demand that they can do what they want with it...and we can't stop them... The world owes you nothing. Nor do we. |
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Post by SamT on Aug 29, 2019 0:08:13 GMT
Nice work Sam (I'll assume that's your name). You have my respect for that, for whatever that's worth. And you seem like a reasonable guy to talk to, so I'll share a few thoughts. What irks me is not that folks want to "mod" what we create (frankly that is in some ways flattering that they show interest in the content), but that they have assumed without actually seeing/hearing it that it needs modding. And that we owe them the right to do that - before we've even released it. All you folks are still looking at was not even a Version 1 of VDL It was frankly thrown over the wall, and thankfully most of it worked and LUL fans liked it. Phase II is very different. Total re-work of the tracks and scenery. New route sections. Rework of the stocks appearance and audio and control systems. Now 7 trains total. 18 scenarios plus Quick Drive. Hopefully you see we feel we have invested a lot of ourselves in this. The best we know how. And that is not to say we can't imagine anyone could improve it - doubtless there are those more skilled that us who could tweak. But we would appreciate folks at least taking a look and seeing, and hopefully appreciating, what we have done before they rip it apart. If the more hot headed among you would simply re-read the EULA and realize it does NOT prevent modding, or upload of quality modifications then all this shit storm could have been avoided. I personally started this thread - not the team. It was in response to comments on FB, and my goal was to show how we wanted to work with folks - not to prevent them. Do you feel it's fair we request mods of appropriate quality? I would hope a good modder would reply YES I do that! And my simple "test of quality" was that it not look out of place on Phase II. Too much to ask for? Thanks for reaching out Sam. Respect. But to those who threaten to take what we created regardless of IP and and demand that they can do what they want with it...and we can't stop them... The world owes you nothing. Nor do we. I appreciate your understanding, and I also personally understand what it's like to have people make terrible mods of your own work so you have my sympathy there. I can't help but feel however that alot of the things said in this shit storm were simply misunderstandings and all of us here were guilty of being hasty towards others. Anyway I digress. Regarding audio I propose to create new and refreshed audio for the d78 as I understand a lot of people have criticized the audio in general, with total respect for the vdl team and all things considered, I'd love to help create a more authentic and realistic experience to fit in line with phase 2, take the video I previously linked as my capabilities lol |
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Post by Jimi on Aug 29, 2019 0:37:24 GMT
Sam - I think we're on the same page.
I don't recall anyone telling me the audio I did for the D78/73TS really sucked, but that was done 2 years ago. All the cab sounds were recorded on a real one. Motor/Rheo came from my MSTS version. However, it could certainly be improved. And we have done so in Phase II. D78/73TS got a lot of new audio courtesy of Xavier this time, as have Met #12, SS, Batteries, etc. So I respectfully request you listen first and then offer ideas. There are certainly some aspects of sounds that I have yet to get right, like distance fade out. I am interested to learn more.
And one final time I will try and repeat my simple message from the OP.
The EULA does NOT prevent mods.
It does describe a method we would like to use to track where stuff is (suppose we issue an update that breaks your mod?), and that it be of reasonable quality "that would not look out of place om VDL Phase II". I assume you could meet or exceed that, right?
If you share our passion for LUL and want to work WITH us we will likely welcome your content with open arms.
What is so unreasonable? (Aryan - that was rhetorical).
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 29, 2019 1:04:59 GMT
Sam - I think we're on the same page. I don't recall anyone telling me the audio I did for the D78/73TS really sucked, but that was done 2 years ago. All the cab sounds were recorded on a real one. Motor/Rheo came from my MSTS version. However, it could certainly be improved. And we have done so in Phase II. D78/73TS got a lot of new audio courtesy of Xavier this time, as have Met #12, SS, Batteries, etc. So I respectfully request you listen first and then offer ideas. There are certainly some aspects of sounds that I have yet to get right, like distance fade out. I am interested to learn more. And one final time I will try and repeat my simple message from the OP. The EULA does NOT prevent mods. It does describe a method we would like to use to track where stuff is (suppose we issue an update that breaks your mod?), and that it be of reasonable quality "that would not look out of place om VDL Phase II". I assume you could meet or exceed that, right? If you share our passion for LUL and want to work WITH us we will likely welcome your content with open arms. What is so unreasonable? (Aryan - that was rhetorical). Jimi I think there was some miscommunication / mistakes made. I have tried to rightfully submit content including sounds from my own recordings and fresh textures made from reference pictures and cropping where necessary. I'd admit this thread didn't really try to fix issues but more of cause an argument/ by unfair that we need "Written consent" to make things like reskins goes towards uploading them without approval. It sounded odd to implement that but i'm on the same page now. I've been planning for the release of phase 2 to make several reskins including a C Stock Proto Refurb and making a farewell D78, final day of operations D78 and eventually a D78 RAT Reskin. If you watch the video I popped in when you asked to show content you can hopefully hear the Motor Whine and Third Rail Clatter Sounds I've added in. I was once told doing reskins wasn't allowed because it was reversed engineering but im ready to put this behind us and forget this entire thing ever happened. I only made mods because I am passionate mostly about the tube. And I hope to for the VDL Phase II and beyond. |
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Post by Jimi on Aug 29, 2019 1:27:39 GMT
Thank you Aryan. Your ideas sound good and in line with what Phase II will bring. You, and everyone on this board and on FB, have yet to see all we have done - we have to leave a few surprises. As I noted above to Sam, you may wish to spend a little time exploring all that is new, including the new and updated stocks. They all have new audio, script improvements, etc. I'm especially fond of the new (old) C69.
Yes, put the old reverse engineering thing behind. We dislike it because if we change the sources and issue an update, you're hosed and maybe your mod breaks. Use with care and thoughtfulness. Nuff said.
And I've always disliked the term "re-skin" as to me it implies a lack of quality. In my [very personal] perception there are 3 levels: re-skin, re-paint, alternate representation. The later is at the level of quality that Xavier presents in his Backdated work which I greatly admire. So your D78 RAT could well be an alternate representation of the D78, right?
And again, don't be offended or put out if we suggest you share with us what your plans might be. You all have now seen pre-refurb images of a few stocks, so you can reasonably assume we're making some. But we're not making a RAT so that would maybe be your time better spent. (No. I'm not suggesting someone else can't do a better pre-refurb than us. I'm just suggesting you look at it first and decide where to put your energy).
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Post by piccadillyline on Aug 29, 2019 9:15:20 GMT
I'm actually glad that the VDL team put up that EULA, because until you've spent thousands of hours of your life working ridiculously hard on something you find passionate, you will never understand what it's like to see all that dedication modified and distributed as someone else's. Heck, this developer had his work stolen and look at how unhappy he is. It adds insult to injury when it's not even an improvement. |
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Post by klmconcorde on Aug 29, 2019 10:21:03 GMT
Thank you Aryan. Your ideas sound good and in line with what Phase II will bring. You, and everyone on this board and on FB, have yet to see all we have done - we have to leave a few surprises. As I noted above to Sam, you may wish to spend a little time exploring all that is new, including the new and updated stocks. They all have new audio, script improvements, etc. I'm especially fond of the new (old) C69. Yes, put the old reverse engineering thing behind. We dislike it because if we change the sources and issue an update, you're hosed and maybe your mod breaks. Use with care and thoughtfulness. Nuff said. And I've always disliked the term "re-skin" as to me it implies a lack of quality. In my [very personal] perception there are 3 levels: re-skin, re-paint, alternate representation. The later is at the level of quality that Xavier presents in his Backdated work which I greatly admire. So your D78 RAT could well be an alternate representation of the D78, right? And again, don't be offended or put out if we suggest you share with us what your plans might be. You all have now seen pre-refurb images of a few stocks, so you can reasonably assume we're making some. But we're not making a RAT so that would maybe be your time better spent. (No. I'm not suggesting someone else can't do a better pre-refurb than us. I'm just suggesting you look at it first and decide where to put your energy). I'll probably start with the scenarios, as you know. My Scenarios were widely covered by large and popular youtubers with my most popular being the 73 Stock Replacement Scenario which was suprisingly well received. So I might try brew up some scenarios and do D78 'Variants'at some point like the RAT and Farewell Tour Variants. Only time can tell |
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Post by Eddie on Aug 29, 2019 21:18:35 GMT
The good news for scenario creators is we've put in portals absolutely everywhere, the signalling system is as good as TS will allow and the route is much larger. The sky is the limit. I know and respect how much work goes into creating realistic scenarios so you all have my undying admiration for that work.
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Post by Jimi on Aug 29, 2019 21:33:27 GMT
And the Route Guide (see other thread) provides a load of information about all the locations, routes and LUL standard procedures so you can create very realistic workings that mimic RL services. We have included 18 scenarios, including stocks and route training as well as some quite difficult timetabled ones, and a few after dark that show off the lighting effects. We look forward to seeing what the VDL community will add...
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Post by Jimi on Aug 30, 2019 20:07:56 GMT
I think this has now served its purpose and we can lock it. Nothing more to see here. Move along...
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