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Post by Eddie on Nov 24, 2021 14:55:41 GMT
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Post by AlexTheMole on Nov 28, 2021 0:19:51 GMT
The C/D Stock railtour pack is fantastic, top work ale123 ! Re-running the D Stock last day scenario with the reskin really is the cherry on top of an already delicious cake.  Sometimes though I wish I wasn't quite so so forgetful. Playing around with some of the engineering stock and the last day D78 and I was thinking "hmmm, the new light flare effect doesn't look very different". Only realised afterwards that I turned off light flare in the options years ago.  Turned it back on and it really does make a huge difference. It looks marvellous, especially in the tunnels! |
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Post by trabantdave on Nov 28, 2021 18:01:28 GMT
If anyone here is old enough to remember a period in the late 1960's when the red R49's were being painted silver to match the aluminium stock, it was not uncommon to see 7-car trains composed of both variants.
I remember seeing these 'hybrids' on the embankment that is just on the northern side of the Thames bridge between Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury, just as the District approaches the Southern region tracks at right angles.
I've created QD consists; one has a 5 Red, 2 Silver set, and the other a 5 Silver 2 Red set.
If anyone wants these I'll offer them up to the VDL team.
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ale123
Station Staff
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Post by ale123 on Nov 30, 2021 15:06:17 GMT
I have a question not directly linked Phase III of the VDL. With Whitechapel now as the VDL's eastern end passengers can change to the East London Line. Stock movements to and from the line are also possible via St. Mary's Curve which branches of to the right just before entering Whitechapel. The ELL exists both in its LO form and in its LU form by Xavier. I made a few runs on the LU ELL and was wondering if you, Xavier, plan on retouching it now that JT's LU signs and signals exist. I know it's quite old and understand if you are occupied with VDL or other projects.
P.S. I've recently learned 3 car D-Stocks shortly ran on the line in the 80's when A-Stocks were off to their OPO conversions. I could imagine a two-part scenario doing an empty stock movement from the District line to New Cross Depot.
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Post by Xavier on Nov 30, 2021 15:55:30 GMT
Someone else asked me this and my response was that I would only consider revisiting the ELL for LU signal upgrades and others alike, if in return I could eliminate another requirement from the existing list.
For a route of its length (as in short), I don't want it to be disproportionately requiring a high amount of DLC packages.
Right now I'm busy with another project, plus working out whether we do anything for an interim update of Phase III.
And whether Phase IV includes ELL or not is a matter for internal team discussion but my gut instinct would be to say that the two won't be merged on the account of the additional requirements it brings with it.
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Post by Jimi on Dec 4, 2021 15:44:00 GMT
SIGNAL FIXES, SHUNTS AND SPADs The following is some update and discussion around various signals issues, and their resolution. For further detailed info on LUL signals and their operation, refer to the Route Guide pages 9-12, and particularly the sections about Shunt signals (p10) and "passing a signal under the rule" (p12). Also see the Stocks Manual pages 13-14 in regards to SPADs, trainstops, tripcocks, etc.
SIGNAL FIXES There was a signal error recently discovered at Praed St Jct where the Circle and H&C lines merge, just before Edgware Rd. Signal OP38 (Circle road) was not protecting the junction due to a signal link error. The result, demonstrated unintentionally by TrainSim_TV Tom recently, was the [slightly early] player train was t-boned by an H&C service as both trains tried to occupy the junction at the same time. My apologies to Tom (and scenario author Josh) for the error, which I have now rectified and the related scenario re-run and proven OK. Note, however, to scenario creators that the initial location of the H&C AI train (partly ahead of OP37, which protects the junction) is risky, and the train should really start in rear of OP37. It turns out it *does* work as TS has set the path across the junction for the AI train, but it's still risky.
Here's what should have happened (screenies taken from the re-test after fixing):
Player train (red train 200) stopped for pax load at PAD. OP38 at red. AI H&C (blue train 206) has just moved from its start position slightly in advance of OP37, and OP36/34 are clear allowing the AI into ERD1, where it then proceeds.
The AI is now in ERD1. OP37 at red. Player gets a clear OP38/36/34 into ERD3. This fix will be included in the next route update. There are a number of other small fixes/additions (like more portals) that we intent to make to V3.0, but we do not yet have a date when we will release the 3.1 update. This is WIP. SHUNT SIGNALS AND SPADS There are a number of locations route-wide where there is a shunt signal co-located with a main signal. There are at entrances to sidings and depots, where the train will diverge (usually left) off the main line. With any other diverging junction there will be a single signal with route indicator (RI) that will clear to green if the route is set and clear (next track section unoccupied). The RI will illuminate if the diverge path is set - classic example WM20/21 at Hangar Lane Jct. between ECM/EBY. Note also that any signal capable of displaying a red aspect has an accompanying trainstop that can trip the train (emergency brake) if the train should SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) the signal. Let's also differentiate the action (SPAD) to the result (train tripped) just to clarify terminology. In the case of a diverging junction for a siding or depot, the only difference is how the path is signaled - usually with a mainline signal AND a separate shunt signal (color light or disc). The trainstop is also present. So the only difference in operation and visual cues, is EITHER the mainline signal OR the shunt will clear if the path is set and clear. The train can pass and follow its path, but one of the signals will be green and the other be red, and the trainstop will be lowered to allow the train to pass without tripping. Despite one of the signals being "red" this is NOT considered a SPAD, as authority to pass is implicitly given by the other signal being green (or shunt OFF). Let's use the west-end depot entry to ECMDT at ECM as an example (refer to Route Guide p16).
 A train in ECM EB about to enter the depot will see the main signal (WM5) at red, and the shunt OFF (clear) and can pass the signals and enter the depot reception road just fine. The trainstop is lowered to allow passage, the train is NOT tripped and no SPAD is reported. Conversely if taking the main path (slow Acton road) WM5 will be green and the shunt will be ON, the train can proceed, will not be tripped but the [simulated] shunt signal (incorrectly) reports a SPAD. I noted to my colleagues as I described all this that the shunt signals should be fixed because "...there is no connection IRL between the shunt signal and the trainstop". And that's not quite true. Here's why...
The natural state of a trainstop is UP (trip), held up by a strong spring; and is lowered by air when a green aspect is obtained (see Route Guide signals section for more details).
If a trainstop is UP (train will SPAD and be tripped) it is NOT the presence of a shunt at red that causes the trainstop to be up - it is the ABSENCE of a green aspect. The trainstop will lower if EITHER the shunt OR main signal is green. So you may be passing a shunt at red but no trip can occur because the trainstop is lowered. So I believe this (passing a shunt at red) should NOT be reported as a SPAD, and that's what I feel JT got wrong with the shunt signals. And we have this situation at EVERY siding or depot entry. It's a diverging junction like any other, except indication as to which path is set/clear is performed by 2 distinct heads - main and shunt; rather than a single signal with an RI. So the simple answer is NOT make the shunt cause/report a trip/SPAD when the train passes it on the main path. Meanwhile, ignore any SPAD reports at end of scenario, just like you should ignore any speeding errors if you accelerated when front-of-train passed the sign. |
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pops
Station Staff
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Post by pops on Dec 5, 2021 9:37:13 GMT
Many thanks for the explanation - I had wondered why I received a SPAD message at the end of some scenarios.
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Post by Jimi on Dec 6, 2021 22:58:30 GMT
APPROACHING A STATION AND BERTHING - HOW NOT TO EMBARRASS YOURSELF :-)I wrote some notes and guidance on how to approach a station and brake to a smooth stop at the mark in the Stocks Manual (pages 13, 17). In process of testing and documenting real-world procedures, I discovered there are a number of ways one can embarrass oneself, to varying degrees, by getting it wrong. Does any of the following sound familiar? If so, I hope the narrative is read as tongue-in-cheek, and the suggestions for how to improve are helpful. Here's my Top 5 "how not to"... 5. You enter the station too fast, don't apply enough brake until too late and slide past the stop point brakes screeching and smoking. A good approach begins with passing the platform end at very close to 30mph, so if required slow to that speed prior to station entry. From there, it is important to get the train under controlled braking immediately, so apply the MAXIMIUM that you feel will be needed to stop the train - most commonly Brake 2. (For C69, this would equate to "EP Nor"). If you applied the brakes too late, then maybe Brake 3 is needed.
Now judge the approach rate to the stop point and at about 20mph back off to Brake 1. Continue to judge the closure rate and you may have to go back to Brake 2 briefly if too fast. Give the brakes a chance to work - make an adjustment and observe the effect. The last car length or so should be in Brake 1 with a goal of coming smoothly to rest at the mark. If you judge you're going to be short, back off to OFF and re-apply (however note brake re-application details below!). Summary: Refer to stocks Manual P 13. Apply the MAX brake needed (e.g. Brake 2) and gradually REDUCE braking as needed to manage the closure rate and stop smoothly. Contrast this method to the wrong way of applying gradually increasing braking until you shudder to a stop in Brake 4 or Emerg and the simulated pax hit the floor. 4. As per the above, but you also slide past the starter signal. Hopefully it's not RED, else you just SPADded and tripped the train. 3. You enter too fast and apply too much braking and then realizing, release the brakes about half way down the platform - now doing 10mph. You continue to crawl down the remainder of the platform at 10mph. Apply Brake 1 to stop, and likely over-run the stop point. It's all about timing and thinking ahead. And not panicking. The D78/73TS/C69 will all stop from 30mph in Brake 3 within their own length (i.e. less that a platform length). If you hit the 30mph goal, and get Brake 2 selected you have quite some number of seconds to then judge the closure rate and make small adjustments and re-observe the effect. Note Stock Manual P17 regarding rheo brakes. If you release the brakes at less than 20mph and then re-apply you will have less braking force than you expect. The Rheostatic brakes do NOT re-apply at 20mph or less, so you now only have the EP brake force and Brake 1 is likely not enough and you need Brake 2. Even at 10mph. 2. Over-running the stop point at less than 10mph is very embarrassing. But at least you didn't overrun the starter. Or did you? And finally... 1. You approach too fast, brake early using Brake 4, decelerating violently to less than 10mph a third the way down the platform. Realizing how it will look to crawl the rest of the way, you re-motor, and closer to the stop point you brake. Only to re-discover the Rheo brakes haven't applied, etc, etc. and you roll past the stop point. Final summary: Think ahead and get to know the station/platform design and length (route knowledge). Plan and execute for a 30mph end-of-platform approach. Grab Brake 2 (or if needed Brake 3) immediately. Gradually reduce brakes as you approach and can judge closure rate. Add or reduce by 1 step and observe the result - and give the brakes a chance to work. Practice!!
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2021 16:13:57 GMT
APPROACHING A STATION AND BERTHING - HOW NOT TO EMBARRASS YOURSELF :-)I wrote some notes and guidance on how to approach a station and brake to a smooth stop at the mark in the Stocks Manual (pages 13, 17). In process of testing and documenting real-world procedures, I discovered there are a number of ways one can embarrass oneself, to varying degrees, by getting it wrong. Does any of the following sound familiar? If so, I hope the narrative is read as tongue-in-cheek, and the suggestions for how to improve are helpful. Here's my Top 5 "how not to"... There's nothing there I would seriously argue with. A point to note is that if you're applying maximum service brake with the rheostatic brake operating and you realise you're going to overshoot, making an emergency application or "dropping the handle" (releasing the Deadman's Handle) will do you no good as the rheo drops out before the air brakes reach full efficiency and so you stop further on than if you'd kept the brake in full service application.
Knowing where and how much brake to apply come with practise and experience. My preference was to brake hard initially and get the train under control, gradually easing the brake as speed decreased until almost at the stopping mark doing about 3mph when I would release the brakes and stop smoothly on the mark.
Although 73 stock, and later, are fitted with valves to increase the braking force according to the weight of the load there is still a need to "feel" the weight of the train and adjust the braking point and amount of brake accordingly.
For those who don't know me, I was a Motorman on the Piccadilly Line in the late 1970s/early eighties during the change from 1959 stock to 1973 stock and so my comments apply to those trains excepting that '59 stock didn't have rheo brakes.
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2021 16:22:03 GMT
Our first promotional video is available for your viewing. Mr Picky rears his head. R and COP stock windows aren't droplights, they're hoppers. |
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Post by trabantdave on Dec 8, 2021 19:44:01 GMT
APPROACHING A STATION AND BERTHING - HOW NOT TO EMBARRASS YOURSELF :-)I wrote some notes and guidance on how to approach a station and brake to a smooth stop at the mark in the Stocks Manual (pages 13, 17). In process of testing and documenting real-world procedures, I discovered there are a number of ways one can embarrass oneself, to varying degrees, by getting it wrong. Does any of the following sound familiar? If so, I hope the narrative is read as tongue-in-cheek, and the suggestions for how to improve are helpful. Here's my Top 5 "how not to"... There's nothing there I would seriously argue with. A point to note is that if you're applying maximum service brake with the rheostatic brake operating and you realise you're going to overshoot, making an emergency application or "dropping the handle" (releasing the Deadman's Handle) will do you no good as the rheo drops out before the air brakes reach full efficiency and so you stop further on than if you'd kept the brake in full service application.
Knowing where and how much brake to apply come with practise and experience. My preference was to brake hard initially and get the train under control, gradually easing the brake as speed decreased until almost at the stopping mark doing about 3mph when I would release the brakes and stop smoothly on the mark.
Although 73 stock, and later, are fitted with valves to increase the braking force according to the weight of the load there is still a need to "feel" the weight of the train and adjust the braking point and amount of brake accordingly.
For those who don't know me, I was a Motorman on the Piccadilly Line in the late 1970s/early eighties during the change from 1959 stock to 1973 stock and so my comments apply to those trains excepting that '59 stock didn't have rheo brakes.
Feathering the brakes? The object being to achieve a jerk-free stop....... 'tis an art. |
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Post by Eddie on Dec 8, 2021 23:32:09 GMT
Really good to hear from you again Roger, and hoping you are well and enjoying the pleasures of the rural countryside, far from the madding crowds of London.
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2021 23:45:58 GMT
Really good to hear from you again Roger, and hoping you are well and enjoying the pleasures of the rural countryside, far from the madding crowds of London. I certainly am Eddie, currently in Somerset. If it wasn't for this covid nonsense I'd be somewhere warmer and sunnier but we are where we are. |
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Post by Roger on Dec 8, 2021 23:47:48 GMT
Knowing where and how much brake to apply come with practise and experience. My preference was to brake hard initially and get the train under control, gradually easing the brake as speed decreased until almost at the stopping mark doing about 3mph when I would release the brakes and stop smoothly on the mark. Feathering the brakes? The object being to achieve a jerk-free stop....... 'tis an art. Indeed, and I was an artist. |
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pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Dec 9, 2021 8:22:10 GMT
I'm confused about stopping on the mark. Does this mean that I should be able to just see the mark from my driving position, or does it mean that the front of the train should be on the mark?
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Post by Roger on Dec 9, 2021 9:10:13 GMT
I'm confused about stopping on the mark. Does this mean that I should be able to just see the mark from my driving position, or does it mean that the front of the train should be on the mark? The front of the train should be on the mark. |
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Post by Eddie on Dec 9, 2021 12:52:55 GMT
Indeed that is where the art lies, I could place the front wheels of my taxi right on the stop line at traffic lights without even thinking about it.................. practice makes perfect.
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Post by Jimi on Dec 9, 2021 13:26:05 GMT
A repeat of an older post showing some detail of how the stop points have been consistently designed so you can anticipate the berthing point and know where to stop so the S-Stock monitors trigger. The diamond on the sleepers should be used for D78, 73TS and C69. Note however there are a few locations (bay roads) that have special C69 diamonds.
THE BERTHING POINT The above shows some things to look out for. As you approach you will first spot the platform end passenger barrier, which partly obscures the stop board until you get closer. You can also see the stop diamond on the sleeper. You want to berth with the front of train close to the center of the stop board and the diamond. You don't have to be perfectly in the center - there's some latitude and it seems if the cab front is within the chevron areas the monitors will trigger.
Here's a view of that from the front. Above shows front of train lined up with stop board and sleeper diamond.
If you turn to look out of the left side cab window, this is what you should see. The passenger barrier will be just behind your cab window. You should just see the left side chevrons of the stop board, so one way to judge the approach can be not to jump to the offside view, but rather to look left out of the side window and stop when you just see the edge of the board. A monitor (for use of other stocks without onboard monitors) should also be in view. Looking forwards through the front window you can clearly see the starter signal. In this case, it is located in the "six foot" (the cess between tracks), but it may be located on the nearside wall part way into the tunnel. Note the cab nearside monitor is active indicating we stopped correctly.
Another item to watch out for in the tunnels is speed limit signs. The tunnel speed signs are illuminated but are quite small. As you gain experience and route knowledge you will be aware of these, especially those that cause a reduction in speed. They do also appear on the F3 HUD to give you advanced warning.
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Post by supermegaforcej on Dec 30, 2021 10:44:57 GMT
Will you guys be doing mile end onwards?
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Post by Eddie on Dec 30, 2021 22:27:50 GMT
At the moment supermegaforce the section from Whitechapel to Upminster is in the "under consideration" pigeon hole. I wouldn't want to say "yes" and then have to recant later. The team are now focussed on extending the Piccadilly tracks in various directions. Believe it or not, most of us on the team adore the 73TS and find it one of the most enjoyable stocks to drive, so some more Piccadilly metals would achieve that aim. After that we may revisit the eastbound extension of the District tracks. One problem with that is we would have to model the C2C tracks as well, which will complicate the job, but never say never...............
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Post by Roger on Dec 30, 2021 22:36:28 GMT
most of us on the team adore the 73TS and find it one of the most enjoyable stocks to drive That's often the view of people who never actually worked them. 59 stock was much more interesting to drive with infinitely variable EP and the Westinghouse. By way of curiosity, can trains in the sim be hand notched? For reference, Piccadilly trains used to work staff trains to West Ken very early and very late. If you want Picc trains disappearing into the tunnel at Barons Court, the first reversing point is Hyde Park Corner which is a trailing cross over immediately east of the station. |
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Post by Eddie on Dec 30, 2021 22:53:55 GMT
By way of curiosity, can trains in the sim be hand notched? I believe they can Roger. Good news in this direction is that Richard has recently aired a fancy to model the 59TS, so we might be able to one day draw a comparison between the two stocks. I might be forced to eat humble pie if that happens, I do love the older stocks. |
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Post by Roger on Dec 30, 2021 23:05:34 GMT
By way of curiosity, can trains in the sim be hand notched? I believe they can Roger. Good news in this direction is that Richard has recently aired a fancy to model the 59TS, so we might be able to one day draw a comparison between the two stocks. I might be forced to eat humble pie if that happens, I do love the older stocks. For those not aware, a brief explanation. On those stocks where the automatic acceleration is controlled by a camshaft, or Rapid Pneumatic Accelerator in LT speak, if one returns the Master Controller to "Shunt" before the camshaft has switched out all the contactors and reached full series or parallel the camshaft will stop notching up and will hold its position. This is useful when on a greasy rail to limit wheelslip. It's also useful where there is a traction current rail gap in advance of a station as it can be used to prevent the "lurch" as the motors cut out while the train is accelerating. A point to note for 59 and similar stock builders regarding the EP. If one applies the EP fully the Retarders will cause the Blowdown Valves to open and partially release the brakes so not allowing maximum braking effect. However, if one backs the Driver's Brake Handle off very slightly the Blowdown's don't come into effect and braking distance is shortened. |
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Post by Eddie on Dec 30, 2021 23:23:49 GMT
A similar scenario is possible in our simulation of the D78 braking behaviour where if you think you might overrun the stop mark coming into a platform and then apply Emergency braking below 20 mph you lose the Rheo braking and will actually take longer to stop.......Jimi's LUA scripting pf the physics allows us to realistically implement EP braking, but Westinghouse....... Windyhouse in LU parlance is a bit beyond the core simulators ability at the moment.
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Post by Jimi on Dec 31, 2021 1:49:42 GMT
On those stocks where the automatic acceleration is controlled by a camshaft, or Rapid Pneumatic Accelerator in LT speak, if one returns the Master Controller to "Shunt" before the camshaft has switched out all the contactors and reached full series or parallel the camshaft will stop notching up and will hold its position. Yes we do that in the LUA code. There's a ton of code emulating both the acceleration and Rheo notching. You will hear the RPA clicking both as you accelerate (to about 22mph when full parallel is in) and also when braking as the RPAs gradually takeout the rheo resistance (when braking notice the ammeter reads negative current ,that gradually decreases). I recall Darren and I designing all that years ago with much reference to Mr Agnew's Electric Trains tomes. A point to note for 59 and similar stock builders regarding the EP. If one applies the EP fully the Retarders will cause the Blowdown Valves to open and partially release the brakes so not allowing maximum braking effect. However, if one backs the Driver's Brake Handle off very slightly the Blowdown's don't come into effect and braking distance is shortened. Simulated also. In fact try the new R49 and you will discover that braking beyond the EP Max point will reduce the braking effect. If you look at both Alan's and Tom's first-look videos, you will see at least one example of them "panic braking" and going too far with the DBH, and the train keeps rolling :-)
Likewise, as Eddie noted, in the C69/D78/73TS going into Emerg will cause the Rheo to drop out.
To Eddie's point re Westinghouse - we could simulate it to a good degree as the required brake handle notches/functions are available within the braking blueprints. What we can not do is simulate more than one braking system (e.g. EP+ Westingouse) at a time. That's why the C69, R49 and Std only have EP braking modeled.
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