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Post by Eddie on Sept 7, 2019 13:37:13 GMT
Please use this thread for any issues arising during, or after installing VDL Phase II
Please also describe any issues in as much detail as you can. Simply saying "It's broke" doesn't help us much :-)
Likewise if you have questions, please read the documentation first - the answer is likely in among the Route Guide or Stocks Operator's Manual.
You will be able to find both in your <TS location>/Manuals/EN folder after VDL installation.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 12:35:08 GMT
I'm going to preempt questions about two possible issues you may encounter, and describe what happens and the solutions.
1. There is a possibility that the C69 train does not fully initialize in more complex scenarios. You will realize this when the controls do not respond to key commands, and the big clue is the small red/orange/green lights on the desk are NOT lit. The solution is to hit ESC and click on "Restart scenario" which forces a reload and re-init of trains. If the lights are lit you are good to go. The red tiny light (Other Cab On) will extinguish when you open up the cab. Refer to the C69 sections of the Operator's Manual for more details.
2. In the S7 WIM-ERD scenario there is a possibility of a player collision between your S7 train and an AI S7, meeting on a curve in the tunnel between Fulham Broadway and West Brompton. We have seen this on rare occasions during test. Unfortunately, we feel this may be a JT S8 issue as it appears the train's bounding boxes are slightly too wide and mean that two trains can collide if meeting head-on on this curve. The curve in question is standard dual-track spacing and radius as in real life so we can do little to alter this situation. We can only suggest you save the scenario at your stop at Fulham Broadway so you can re-start at that point in the event of a collision. We will, however, discuss this with the folks at JT and see if we can arrive at a solution.
We feel that Just Trains might not be aware of this problem yet, as so far their L-A Met route does not feature any tight radius curves like the one that exists in the Stamford Bridge tunnel. When they release the full Metroplolitan Line, no doubt they will run into this issue around Aldgate where curves of this nature exist.
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jmm
Station Staff
Posts: 21
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Post by jmm on Sept 9, 2019 15:59:09 GMT
Hi! First of all, congratulations for your hard work. This is a very good route and my full compliments go to the team!
I have some (rather minor) suggestions to further enhance the quality of the route and the stock. So far I have only done the training activities, so when I finish all the included scenarios I will update this list if I find something else to suggest.
1. Terrain in the Earl's Court area, specially in the section between Earl's Court and West Kensington. In this area, the terrain is quite irregular and in some places the track is floating. I guess this is due to the difficulty of the section and that this is the best it was possible to achieve.
2. D78 destination list. With the opening of the Wimbledon branch, IMO this should be available as a destination blind, maybe in spite of Mansion House as the route does not go there yet! Also, if there is no room for more destinations, maybe Tower Hill should be replaced with Upminster, given that it is usually a more common one for EB trips. Also on this point, JT S8 has the ability to change the train number separately from the destination. This would be handy on VDL stock as well, as it would feel more realistic not to change the train number in each trip.
This are just suggestions for a great route. Thank you!
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 16:10:54 GMT
Comments greatly appreciated! Yes, the ECT-WKN area is difficult and TS terrain granularity isn't quite as fine as we'd like but likely we can improve things. We will add this to our future improvements list. One clarification - the "train number" you refer to in point 2 is in reality called a Set Number which appears in the train M door window at the front and refers to the specific working being executed from the Working Timetable (WTT). As such there are specific set numbers or number ranges allocated for specific services and workings. What we have done is assign a typical set number from that list to each destination, as that set number would likely be seen on a train executing that service to that final destination. I would have thought the Met did things the same way - maybe not. There isn't a "train number" as such, although each car has a unique number and relates to others in the train. See the car numbering section in the Operator's Manual for more info.
I will, however, research/verify with our LUL consultants whether a train that is re-formed to a different destination does change its set number. Logic says YES, but this is LUL! I will also re-check the WTT to see if (e.g. ) an OLY shuttle has a different set number for destination of HSK or OLY. Should it prove a requirement to divorce the destination and set number I will devise a way to do so for all the stocks in a future update. Re the D78 blind - we had a team debate about that a short while ago. We are out of available slots, for now. However this is something we want to address as a future update.
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Post by chiefjackyt on Sept 9, 2019 18:32:11 GMT
It's me again, I've found another scenario bug. In the Standard Stock scenario, I get stuck in the Gloucester Road Reverse after coming from P3, due to go to P1. I never get routed into P3 and the signal stays red. I've been in the siding for almost 5 mins (I used async keys) and I don't seem to get the route. imgur.com/a/ggCRVoc
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 18:42:01 GMT
Re GRD reverse...
Sounds like you are running very early. The route is locked by an incoming Outer Circle train entering from the portal in the road to your left. He will go into P2. Then you get a green and go into P1. He leaves around the circle to HSK, you leave to ECT about the same time. Check the timetable to see when you are supposed to be at GRD, versus any of the Outer Circle AI trains. I'd bet you are early and the incoming Circle has the path set. I can only tell you that Ed and I tested the hell out of all the scenarios for about 2 weeks before launch, and they do work. And the signals work and handle unexpected meets due to unexpected player timing. I have no idea if asych keys have any effect. Please let us know how it goes...
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jmm
Station Staff
Posts: 21
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Post by jmm on Sept 9, 2019 18:49:23 GMT
I will, however, research/verify with our LUL consultants whether a train that is re-formed to a different destination does change its set number. Logic says YES, but this is LUL! I will also re-check the WTT to see if (e.g. ) an OLY shuttle has a different set number for destination of HSK or OLY. Should it prove a requirement to divorce the destination and set number I will devise a way to do so for all the stocks in a future update. Well, both things are actually possible! A train might be diverted and have its destination changed (for instance, during disruption, an EBY train might be turned short at Olympia without having its set number changed) or might be reformed into another set, which may or may not change its destination.
The OLY shuttle did not have a different number for each destination. For instance, in WTT 140 (May 2011) numbers 151 and 152 are allocated to two trains working the Olympia shuttle. 151 started at Lillie Bridge depot at 0634, arriving to Olympia at 0640, and would then depart Olympia at 0645 (empty) towards High Street Kensington (arr. 0653), entering service at Earl's Court. It would then depart High Street Kensington at 0659, and when it arrived there, would reverse and work back to HSK. This would continue until 1627, when set 151 would form a service to Tower Hill from Olympia. After that, it went to Wimbledon, Dagenham East (would remain there for about 30 minutes), Barking sidings (empty) and finally Upminster depot (empty).
152 started at Upminster depot at 0755, ran to EBY, from there to HSK and then started working the OLY shuttle.
So, as you see, a given set/train number (the timetable calls it "train number") can work to different destinations as per timetable! Hope that helps! I have all DL timetables since WTT140 and some TTN too, so if you want to have a look, just ask!
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 18:58:02 GMT
I have District WTT142 (Dec 2012) and a few others thanks. But had not spotted that set numbers carried over as per your example.[/div] OK - I will modify the LUA code to handle destination changes and not modify the set number. We will still assign a default set number to the destination when the train is "created", if the scenario designed has not changed it from 000 as part of the RVNumber. We will no longer change the set number from that defined by the scenario author when you alter the CIS/blind destination. Does that work for you? Or do you need a method to enter a 3-digit set number during service?
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Post by chiefjackyt on Sept 9, 2019 19:34:52 GMT
Re GRD reverse...
Sounds like you are running very early. The route is locked by an incoming Outer Circle train entering from the portal in the road to your left. He will go into P2. Then you get a green and go into P1. He leaves around the circle to HSK, you leave to ECT about the same time. Check the timetable to see when you are supposed to be at GRD, versus any of the Outer Circle AI trains. I'd bet you are early and the incoming Circle has the path set. I can only tell you that Ed and I tested the hell out of all the scenarios for about 2 weeks before launch, and they do work. And the signals work and handle unexpected meets due to unexpected player timing. I have no idea if asych keys have any effect. Please let us know how it goes... I seem to remember that there weren't any timings on that scenario. I'll play it again now from where I left off and see if waiting for an incoming train fixes it. Me being early could also explain why there was no AI the other way when messages where saying it was very busy haha
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 19:42:29 GMT
Re GRD reverse...
Sounds like you are running very early. The route is locked by an incoming Outer Circle train entering from the portal in the road to your left. He will go into P2. Then you get a green and go into P1. He leaves around the circle to HSK, you leave to ECT about the same time. Check the timetable to see when you are supposed to be at GRD, versus any of the Outer Circle AI trains. I'd bet you are early and the incoming Circle has the path set. I can only tell you that Ed and I tested the hell out of all the scenarios for about 2 weeks before launch, and they do work. And the signals work and handle unexpected meets due to unexpected player timing. I have no idea if asych keys have any effect. Please let us know how it goes... I seem to remember that there weren't any timings on that scenario. I'll play it again now from where I left off and see if waiting for an incoming train fixes it. Me being early could also explain why there was no AI the other way when messages where saying it was very busy haha Chief - that specific scenario is not timetabled in the sense you need to keep to a time. However, every train has a theoretical timetable it should run very close to. If you use the scenario editor you can look at each service and see the time it is expected at each location. I know I set up the timing of the Inner and Outer Circle services (3 of each, 5 mins apart) so you'd see opposing traffic in your runs HSK-ERD and back. The one you're waiting for should be the 3rd Outer rail service. How many Circles did you see coming at you from ERD-HSK-GRD? If you were very early, likely 1 or none :-) The only way we can know exactly where you are is with the timetabled scenarios, as you are held to departure times. And we did include a few of those...
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Post by chiefjackyt on Sept 9, 2019 20:06:57 GMT
I am pretty sure I saw none. Anyway, at about 10:33 or 10:34, a D78 from Earls Court came into GRD3, not GRD2. Then it came and ploughed into me in the GRD reverse siding. I arrived at GRD at around 10:20. I guess I'll have to take a look in the scenario editor to see what's happening.[/quote]The scenario has me getting to GRD reverse at 10:28, I was there almost 10mins before that and was still stuck there after that. I have a feeling that earlier in the scenario I somehow got in front of an AI train, causing me to not have to drive behind a regular stopping service, hence no AI because I was too early, and hence an issue with the AI because I am now in front of a certain piece of AI and that has somehow messed it all up. At least that is what I think.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 20:15:08 GMT
So it appears you are driving a 1928 Heritage train way too fast. I'll have someone from the Museum have a word with you... :-)
And I'd agree with your hypothesis. It takes a good 10-12 mins to drive HSK-ERD or ERD--HSK-GRD stopping all stations, and obeying all speed limits. So if you were at GRD almost 10 mins early...
Did you run into the back of a D78 somewhere around RPK about 5 minutes into the scenario?
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Post by chiefjackyt on Sept 9, 2019 20:17:15 GMT
Yes I had a D78 in front at the start of the scenario until it took another route. Also, I didn't know we had to stop at all stations, or is that just referring to if there was a train in front I'm effectively doing that? Anyway, see my other post I just made.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 20:26:26 GMT
The AI Circles work fine. They are in the same signal block because they are spawned by a portal, 5 mins apart. We try to time other traffic based on the player's expected time at various locations. However there is a window +/- those assumptions outside which the scenario as a whole can change and produce unexpected, or undesired actions. Domino effect. A train gets out of expected sequence which has a knock-on effect throughout. The signals should handle those situations and correctly preserve train spacing and block occupancy, but sometimes the "TS Dispatcher" can not handle a conflict or out of expected order situation.
I can only suggest trying again a little less rapidly. It's a 1928 train on a tour :-)
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Post by Eddie on Sept 9, 2019 20:26:29 GMT
Or you got mis-pathed onto the fast Piccadilly somewhere. You don't stop at all stations in the tour, only the ones in the task list. But you are behind service trains that do stop, AND you were told at the start.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 9, 2019 21:48:48 GMT
Or you got mis-pathed onto the fast Piccadilly somewhere. I think Ed was kidding. Your train was pathed down the EB slow at Acton and through P4. You *could* theoretically have then branched over to the EB fast and regained the EB slow at P3 at HAMS. But I can't imagine a situation where the dispatcher would do that, and besides you said you came up behind the D78 around TGN-SBK-RPK on the EB slow line as we intended you to. And he is a stopping service through ECT to HSK3 and so holds you up until you pass through HSK2 and its speed limits. You are on expected schedule to that point. From there, no delays to ERD or back to HSK/GRD meaning you could easily get ahead of schedule - which is the most likely cause as it makes the least assumptions (ref: Occam's Razor). And 10 mins early at GRD means you are likely now out of expected sequence, and the dominoes fall, and the Dispatcher throws its toys out of the pram :-) This is a good learning experience for a scenario creator. Sometimes what we envisage or design to happen doesn't, for reasons we didn't allow for.
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Post by catsrcool on Sept 10, 2019 5:10:56 GMT
On my PC the installer invited me to look at the 2 included PDF's which I selected and they were not opened.
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Post by theflyingoreo on Sept 10, 2019 10:17:06 GMT
With the C and D Stock, I can't seem to set a custom train number and destination for the player train. It shows fine in the editor but in game it reverts back to what is presumed a default allocation.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 10, 2019 11:13:22 GMT
Re opening the PDFs at the end of installation - we (the team) saw that too on a few occasions when testing the install. In our case it seemed to be an Adobe fault, and not all of us got the problem. So definitely a local issue and likely related to the PDF viewer you may be using. I did an Adobe reader update which fixed it for me. Ed was using Edge and had issues. It doesn't, however, stop you opening the docs afterwards. Re the set number and destination. I have had a number of discussions with several of you on this topic, and I think we've arrived at a description of what is needed. On the C69 and D78 my LUA code (right now) assigns a typical set number when it detects the train destination is set/changed. As a result of these discussions (similar to the request above) we have decided this is the wrong behavior and will correct it in an upcoming update. You should be able to set a custom destination via setting the lead DM's RVNumber string. That string defines several things - the DM car number, a destination code letter and a set number alphabetic 3-char string. There is a section in the Operator's Manual (pages 45-47) that describes this in detail. When the train enters the scenario and initializes my code currently does 2 things: First it assigns a "typical" set number for the destination and encodes that into the RVNumber (yes, this overwrites the one you may have put in - which is wrong). Second the code sends a message to the other-end DM to set its RVNumber destination and set number to be the same as the front (as it should be, so this is correct). Then at any time you change the destination via the in-cab PgUp/Dn keys and the CIS panel, the set number is again changed to a typical number for that new destination (which is wrong).
This will be changed to NOT mess with the set number and leave it to be whatever the scenario creator defined it as - note this puts onus on the scenario creator to actually assign a valid (octal) number (ideally from a WTT), else the set number will remain a default of 000. The code will still copy the relevant parts of the RVNumber to the rear DM so the set number and destination match on front/rear cars as LUL rules say they must. Likewise, we will not mess with the set number if the player changes destination in-game via the CIS controls/blind - simply change the destination displayed on the CIS/blind/external display/etc on the front and rear DMs.
Does that meet your requirements? We can also consider a separate method (to be implemented later, separately) to change the set number during service (in scenario) likely via the CIS panel, but it seems from various discussions this is not a requirement as it so seldom happens IRL. Thoughts/comments appreciated.
We have a number of small tweaks and fixes we're considering for a route/stocks update in the not too distant future. Obviously we need to implement and test those, so we can maintain QA, before we put out the update. So don't expect it tomorrow - but it won't be too long. We'd like to put out one fully-tested multi-item update rather than single tiny item ones every few days.
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Post by smproductions on Sept 10, 2019 15:16:27 GMT
Afternoon all,
The route is looking fantastic, especially liking the 73 stock! Apologies for posting in the 'wrong' help section earlier but here's my issue.
I'm having issues with a scenario I'm creating that involves going from Earl's Court (Piccadilly) towards Acton Town crossing over WB fast to WB local just before Hammersmith due to service disruption.
Even when adding an intermediate destination as a waypoint over this crossover the dispatcher tries to route the train in a bizarre way involving going into Hammersmith platform 3 through Barons Court siding, back through Barons Court on the EB local then reversing at West Kensington to reach Hammersmith platform 1 via the WB District. It doesn't seem to recognise the fact the crossover is there but it can be used no problem in free roam scenarios.
Timetable locations used so far are as follows: PICK UP Earl's Court (Piccadilly) platform 2 PICK UP Barons Court platform 2 WAYPOINT WB Fast to WB Local (created by me for this scenario however the issue persists with or without it added) PICK UP Hammersmith platform 1 PICK UP Turnham Green platform 1 PICK UP Acton Town platform 1 DESTINATION Acton Town platform 1
Any help with this would be much appreciated and thanks in advance!
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Post by Jimi on Sept 10, 2019 15:54:23 GMT
I think the issue is the same as when running a Picc EB from P3. In that case it will, if not prevented, briefly cross to the EB slow and then back to the fast. The reason is the dumb dispatcher thinks that it's a shorter path. I added a "VIA" marker on the fast road between the 2 relevant points, so you can use that as a Via point in your task list to keep the small train on it's own road. I mention the above as I'd bet that's also the issue going WB from BCT through the siding, or not. I see you have added a Via point to direct path the train over the x-over to the slow road. As you surmise it *should* work (and shouldn't be needed) and I know the track directionality and signals will correctly allow that route. The siding is bi-directional but should not come into play at all. I'll try this when I get a few free moments later and report back...
EDIT/UPDATE:
I see exactly the same weird pathing behavior as you. If I put the scenario destination marker right on the track across the fast-to-slow points, the dispatcher throws it toys out and says it can't get to HAM1 from there (20 yds away on the slow road). I tried deleting/rebuilding the Scenario DB cache, with no change in effect. Now I'm looking VERY closely at the tracks directionality around the area...
MORE EDIT/UPDATE:
Found it. There is a small section of track on the fast-slow x-over just after signal WD32c that has wrong directonality, so the dispatcher (quite rightly I regret) refuses to path you over it. I have fixed it and proved it now works - and you won't need a scenario VIA point. My apologies for this error. We will include this fix (tracks.bin change) in our planned update.
Train is now pathed over the x-over:
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Post by smproductions on Sept 10, 2019 22:32:32 GMT
Thanks for the update Jimi much appreciated!
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Post by catsrcool on Sept 11, 2019 12:22:00 GMT
When I drive the D78 stock there is a high pitched "pulse" of about 1 second duration all the time. Tried it on my laptop as well same. I am a route tester for "alex 55" the author of the WCML south route and I got him to try it on his system and he has the same sound.
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Post by Jimi on Sept 11, 2019 13:45:33 GMT
It is likely the Motor-Alternators (MAs) sound, which is very high pitched. Some people hear a pulse and some do not. Seems to be sound card dependent. We have it on our list to look at further and see if we can improve it. Thanks!
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Post by Jimi on Sept 11, 2019 14:15:37 GMT
Guys, a polite suggestion. I've been watching some of the new videos now appearing on YT, and it's apparent few if any of the creators took the time to read the documentation. Lots of guesswork about commands and train features and route details, that are all described in the docs.
And in particular read page 4, which recommends specific scenery and train detail and density levels, the HUD settings, etc. I see some of the videos are missing scenery because the detail/density level isn't turned up. The F4 Fisher-Price HUD is blocking half the cab view. The FOV is too narrow.
We wrote that stuff based on our testing so your display of the trains and route would look the best possible.
A little background reading and optimizing your TS settings will make your videos stand out and look very professional.
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