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Post by markhazeldine on Jul 23, 2021 17:34:16 GMT
These are looking excellent! As a former commuter on the line, I can vouch for the authentic feel. I think my only piece of feedback is they all feel a bit too "clean". In real life, things feel a bit more grubby. I wonder if some weathering could be added here and there to the textures? In particular, the platform and ceiling textures in the screenshots seem a bit monolithic and devoid of detail.
For example, if I look at photos of Mansion house on Google Images, the platforms are covered in small square tiles, which are not included in your version, and the darker strips along the edges are thicker and there's dirt all over the place. The ceiling is made of narrow strips that are quite tatty, rather than large rectangles that are all uniform. Finally, I don't see any shadows being cast by the benches or station signs in your TS renditions, which makes things look a bit surreal. If the game can't cast those shadows, perhaps they could be baked into the textures?
I don't say this to criticise, because these stations are looking great. I just feel that a little more detail could add a lot to the authenticity.
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Post by Jimi on Jul 24, 2021 14:28:00 GMT
We made a decision a long time ago to portray all stations in their best light. So no dirt. No trash on the tracks. We also decided the focus was to be the experience of driving the trains with recognizable scenery and stations. We'd like a real DR T/OP to feel right at home. We have included significant detail where it makes a difference to driving (signals, track infrastructure, landmarks), but with any scenery (and I include stations in this) there comes a point of diminishing returns for time invested. So the ceilings are created from appropriately shapes objects, and platforms are standard items. Many items cast shadows, but again it's a judgement call. Too many kills FPS. Our time is better spent on other detail that affects the operation and driving. It's an Underground sim - not a diorama.
We also sacrifice authenticity for scope. It's taken significant years work to get this far, and as we've progressed we had to repeatedly decide what era we're in as the District (and adjoining lines) evolved and were updated, and it's ended up a mix. However this allows scenarios (and related train stock) from multiple eras.
We're close to finishing this section of the route, which has taken the team close to a year. 24 route miles of tracks and 14 stations. We'd like to get this released, once we've completed the remaining stations scenery and scenarios, and completed testing.
So while you may desire more detail please understand it's not that we couldn't do it, but rather we decide on a case-to-case basis what/how to do it. The route provides what one fan called sensory overload, but we manage to deliver excellent FPS in the process. And (tongue in cheek) while you're busy counting tiles on the platform we'd rather you focus out the front window and spot that the starter is red...
Seriously, thanks for the feedback. We do listen to comments and suggestions closely and where we can, we do.
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Post by Xavier on Jul 24, 2021 19:34:01 GMT
These are looking excellent! As a former commuter on the line, I can vouch for the authentic feel. I think my only piece of feedback is they all feel a bit too "clean". In real life, things feel a bit more grubby. I wonder if some weathering could be added here and there to the textures? In particular, the platform and ceiling textures in the screenshots seem a bit monolithic and devoid of detail. For example, if I look at photos of Mansion house on Google Images, the platforms are covered in small square tiles, which are not included in your version, and the darker strips along the edges are thicker and there's dirt all over the place. The ceiling is made of narrow strips that are quite tatty, rather than large rectangles that are all uniform. Finally, I don't see any shadows being cast by the benches or station signs in your TS renditions, which makes things look a bit surreal. If the game can't cast those shadows, perhaps they could be baked into the textures? I don't say this to criticise, because these stations are looking great. I just feel that a little more detail could add a lot to the authenticity. I have baked ambient occlusions on all the stations, but there will be some countermanding of its effect through the lighting. A lot of the station furniture is also separate clutter so won't feed into baking the AO anyway. Small forum-sized pictures especially with how dynamic the lighting is won't reveal all the details at once and I think I've done them to a good standard. So if I shine a torch in the editor on the ceiling at Mansion House for example you should be able to see better the grubbiness of the space. What makes my approach different from JTs is that I've done my best to make the lighting as dynamic as possible but keep performance hit down. Using light sources to cast multi-directional shadows is rather hard-hitting on FPS especially when you have lots of small radius sources like here. So for example, if I were to turn on cast shadows for all the point lights in Mansion House, that would drop the FPS from an average of 40FPS to about 15FPS, which is completely unmanageable for most people's performance standards. I'm not too much of a fan of JT's method of making the light levels completely uniform across a whole station. On our stations, there will be light and dark parts. I can re-examine the Mansion House ceiling, though the platforms will have to remain as they are as they're a uniform loft used across all the route, to save time and avoid having to remake the lofts or make new ones for each station model. I could look at whether it's worth opting for a more detailed texture but we've got to take an average across the whole network. It's the difference between several weeks of additional development time and several MB of additional data that we have been trying to save when the development is rather extended already.
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Post by Eddie on Jul 25, 2021 14:38:57 GMT
Can I also pitch in here with my observations. There is simply no way to reveal with a screenshot the impression you get actually driving a train into one of these stations. A screenshot is simply a postcard flat 2D view that not only approximates the lighting, but also reduces colour saturation and contrast. I would simply say, wait until you see the real thing before criticising LOD too much. These stations are some of the best I've seen in any simulator of Underground railways. I fully agree with Jimi and Xavier about frame rates too. Nothing kills the illusion quicker than the sim starting to stutter as you roll into a highly detailed station or area. We work very hard to make the VDL frame rate friendly, and Xavier has hit the sweet spot nicely in my opinion...........
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Post by aussieltfan on Jul 31, 2021 0:08:48 GMT
I just wanted to say how much i love your work. The time and commitment of the whole team never ceases to amaze me and i am very grateful for it. The virtual district is my favourite sim by far and the atmosphere it creates always takes me back to my childhood riding the district line regularly. i hope this encourages you and I can hardly wait to drive to Whitechapel!
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Post by Jimi on Aug 1, 2021 13:27:50 GMT
Much appreciated! Whitechapel station is under construction as we speak, and we've continued tracks into the east end tunnel far enough to provide room and portals to spawn WB AI services and also the [real] x-over so we can turn EB-WB also. We also retained the old 4-platform design with the WB siding.
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Post by markhazeldine on Aug 2, 2021 22:12:04 GMT
Thanks for all the responses to my feedback. I certainly understand the tenuous balance you have to strike between detail, FPS, and actually getting the route out. It's interesting to read about how having lots of point sources of light impacts FPS. I'd never considered that. I'm certainly excited to try it out when it's done anyway! I'm sure it'll be brilliant. Can't wait to do the full run from Richmond.
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Post by Eddie on Aug 3, 2021 16:23:48 GMT
We found out about the point light sources issue quite a while ago. When Darren was building the C-Stock cab he added point light sources for the saloon. It absolutely tanked frame rates, even if you met a static C-Stock consist the sim became a slide show until you were far enough away from it. We learned a lot from that mistake.
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Post by Xavier on Aug 15, 2021 16:31:20 GMT
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Johnny
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by Johnny on Aug 15, 2021 18:04:57 GMT
The pictures of all of the Phase III stations look absolutely incredible.
Very well done to Xavier and also to the VDL team collectively for the scenery, signalling, etc.
Really looking forward to the release of Phase III - it has definitely been worth the wait.
Johnny
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Post by Mike on Aug 15, 2021 19:36:20 GMT
Marvelous! Well done Xavier. Teasing us with the R stock again. How is the cab coming along Darren? Will we see the R stock in version three? No pressure, We understand it will be ready when its ready! Mike
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Post by Xavier on Aug 15, 2021 20:31:48 GMT
Marvelous! Well done Xavier. Teasing us with the R stock again. How is the cab coming along Darren? Will we see the R stock in version three? No pressure, We understand it will be ready when its ready! Mike Darren is having a break from the team to give full attention to personal matters. He's doing fine at the moment. Richard was working on the cab but since retirement has not as much time as previously thought to finish it. So he's given it to me to have a look at and hopefully I can do something positive with it.
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Post by Mike on Aug 15, 2021 22:43:43 GMT
Thanks for the update Xavier. All the best to Darren and Richard. Mike
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Post by Jimi on Aug 16, 2021 0:07:44 GMT
The current depiction of the R49 is a base-bones running train. The final version will need a realistic cab, which Xavier is now in process of completing based on Richard's work. As part of that we will need all the control and display animations, which will then need me to create/test LUA code that "wires" the controls to their various simulated systems (control logic, traction, braking, lighting, air, etc); plus linking those systems between the cars, plus all the required "physics" that make it run/brake/behave like an R49.
So right now we have an excellent model basis for the DM and T cars, with a good interior (pass view) and working doors and a lot of the sounds. Plus the beginnings of a very good cab.
So there's still quite a lot of work to complete before it's all up to our desired standards, but we'll keep you informed as always. It won't be released as part of Phase III, as we're focused on finishing that along with some new special DR and Circle scenarios (including more special Emma Clark audio), plus an updated Route Guide with the Lower Circle details described.
It is very rewarding to see you guys as enthusiastic as we are about the new highly detailed section of the DR/Circle. And the R49. Thank you! It won't be too long now...
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Post by Mike on Aug 16, 2021 7:31:02 GMT
Hi Jimi, Thanks again for the information. I'm currently trying to get a rare DMU to work in 1ft to 1 ft scale. So I do Understand the difficulties!
Mike
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Post by Eddie on Aug 16, 2021 14:00:14 GMT
If any of you have ever tried your hand at creating your own route in TS, (highly recommended), you'll appreciate that turning a vast expanse of green grass in all directions into a realistic route that can be recognized as close to reality is a daunting prospect. When I started creating Ealing Broadway back in 2007 in Railworks with Jimi's help and good old RW Decal by Jim Nobkins, little did I suspect how realistic this route would turn out to be. I had originally got hooked on Jimi's District Line route for MSTS and joined the team soon after. Railworks was a huge step forwards, but of course that has evolved in TS. Xavier joining the team around the time we started the Wimbledon branch was a watershed moment and with his help it fired up the team to get on and finish what we started. We lost RW Decal as a critical tool, but Xavier found a way to manually create decals so we could continue building a super accurate track path. Seeing these pictures just fills me with joy now. The new stations all have an identity of their own, just as Richard's did. Creating that "feel" is where science meets art. Xavier, I take my hat off to you. It all looks and "feels" spot on.
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Post by Hyde Park Corner on Aug 18, 2021 16:35:50 GMT
To echo what others have posted - the lighting, modeling, and general appearance of these lower Circle Line stations is amazing! Seeing the green tiling at Sloan Square brought a smile to my face. I attempted building a route many years ago and it was a mediocre result at best. Hats off to the builders for the time, skill, and dedication to see this through!
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Post by Eddie on Aug 21, 2021 11:38:01 GMT
Having seen the screenshots at Whitechapel above still won't prepare you for the experience of emerging from the dark dingy tunnels eastbound into Whitechapel. It is a crowning masterpiece of the route that sent shivers down my spine. Absolutely stunning work from dear old Xavier, who is turning into a legend in front of our eyes.
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Post by markhazeldine on Aug 24, 2021 8:55:12 GMT
Wow, that last set of images look amazing. I'm so excited for this! Looking forward to driving the "full run" from Richmond to Whitechapel at last.
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Post by Jimi on Aug 24, 2021 17:18:06 GMT
A few screenshots grabbed during testing a new Circle Line scenario. For the fist time you can drive a Circle C69 around the Inner and Outer rail paths between Aldgate and Edgware Rd, along with DR and Circle AI traffic to hold you up and distract you :-) Typical 2-3 minute headways. All new tunnel signals. If you see a yellow...start braking!
More to come...
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Post by klmconcorde on Sept 2, 2021 1:23:33 GMT
Been on a bit of a hiatus from these forums and Train Simulator in general. My first impressions are wow... I am amazed, the station building has improved massively from the days of Phase 1 and 2, this is excellent work. Pat yourselves on the back... cant wait to see more!
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Post by Xavier on Sept 17, 2021 10:43:58 GMT
Some small updates to keep things ticking over. The route is, as far as we know, now complete for Phase III. Jimi has done a few signalling improvements and through trials, we have made the executive decision to change from using JustTrains track and IOW third rail loft, to using the (bright-variant) track from Vulcan Productions, along with their more accurate power rail loft. It also involved changing our previous choice of ballast terrain texture. Since their track is freeware, there will be no cost implications on users. Hopefully you think it looks great! I've also been through the route and given areas undercover and in tunnels "no-snow" terrain textures and track so that now when you drive in winter, you won't see snow in places it shouldn't be. We've also been progressing with the R stock. LUA scripting is still ongoing but the two big items introduced to the model are: 1) A cab 2) A changeable destination blind with up to 26 different blinds.
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Post by markhazeldine on Sept 17, 2021 20:21:14 GMT
Looking very nice Xavier! It seems like the track does look slightly more realistic in these latest screenshots vs the set further up this page, so I'm guessing what I'm seeing is the new VP track. Did you have to re-lay the whole route, or were you able to just swap out the track type?
So what's left to do before release now then?
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Post by Xavier on Sept 17, 2021 20:33:31 GMT
Looking very nice Xavier! It seems like the track does look slightly more realistic in these latest screenshots vs the set further up this page, so I'm guessing what I'm seeing is the new VP track. Did you have to re-lay the whole route, or were you able to just swap out the track type? So what's left to do before release now then? It's just a straight swap with RW-Tools / TS-Tools. Well currently the priorities are getting the R49 completed, and also scenario writing. After that it will be the usual things like testing, writing/updating documentation, creating installation packages, more testing, doing publicity and stuff like that. We have no timescale for all that. We'll take it as it comes.
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Post by gandalf53 on Sept 19, 2021 13:49:56 GMT
Looking very nice Xavier! It seems like the track does look slightly more realistic in these latest screenshots vs the set further up this page, so I'm guessing what I'm seeing is the new VP track. Did you have to re-lay the whole route, or were you able to just swap out the track type? So what's left to do before release now then? It's just a straight swap with RW-Tools / TS-Tools. Well currently the priorities are getting the R49 completed, and also scenario writing. After that it will be the usual things like testing, writing/updating documentation, creating installation packages, more testing, doing publicity and stuff like that. We have no timescale for all that. We'll take it as it comes. So just a couple of hours more work then... 😂😂
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