pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Jun 28, 2020 8:27:39 GMT
Thank you both - that has certainly fixed it. So, not only the best route, but also the best support.
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Post by dandiedinmont on Jun 29, 2020 13:38:12 GMT
Hi all, new member here and can I start by adding my voice to the chorus of thanks for producing this wonderful route.
I wonder if you could give me some advice on an issue I'm seeing? On the first training scenario, all goes well until I arrive back at Ealing Common to go back into ECMDT. At this point the shunting disk at the end of the platform, WM7 never clears despite the correct route into the depot being set and there being no apparent reason in the '9' view, as far as I can tell anyway, why the signal shouldn't clear. Strangely enough, if I save at this point then reload, the signal does clear both in the sim and the '9' view though I still get a SPAD when I pass the signal. Once I have passed the signal, the rest of the scenario works fine. I've checked and my timings are more or less what the scenario expects.
I've tried all the things you've suggested further up this thread such as re-installing the route, reinstalling the Met line, deleting the SDBCache.bin file and emptying the cache in the tools menu. The issue appears in both the 32bit and 64bit version of Train Simulator. I have all the essential requirements but not any of the JT routes which were previously required and I'm not running a virus checker. I've tried the second training scenario a couple of times as well and I think I have the same issue when re-entering Lillie Bridge from W Ken but I'd have to check again to be sure.
The problem obviously lies somewhere in my Train Simulator installation. Do you have any suggestions as to what else I could try to diagnose the problem?
Thanks in advance, Craig.
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Post by Eddie on Jun 29, 2020 17:14:45 GMT
Welcome to the boards Craig. What you are seeing at Ealing Common is a glitch that is caused by the JT Tab widget that has been put there to avoid tripping of the S7+1 Advanced train. A by product of this is that the shunt disc never clears, although as you note the path into the depot is correctly set. I thought this issue was one of the known issues discussed in the the Route Manual, but if not it should be included'
Jimi who is our signals guru might be able to elaborate here, but it is not your installation, driving, etc. It is a problem that remains to be fixed on our wishlist. Shunt discs elsewhere seem to be OK, for some reason it is just that one that refuses to play ball.
There was a similar report a while back from someone who only had the Met and not the L-A which was a previous requirement, but there may well be an omission in the JT Common library which might be causing the issue elsewhere.
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Post by Jimi on Jun 29, 2020 20:11:59 GMT
Ed's correct, and I'll provide a little more info for the curious...
There are several places where we use the UKpro (JT produced) disc shunt signal to control access onto siding roads or depot entry roads. There are places in particular where these are co-located with a semi-auto main line running signal (JTLU). Slow road WB approaching ACT with entry into Siding 24, and thus Acton Works; ACT WB fast access into west siding 26; ACT EB slow and fast access into east sidings 21/22/23; ECM EB access to ECMDT, WKN EB access into Lillie Bridge.
If the shunt is OFF allowing access to the siding/depot road the semi is logically at red. Conversely, if the semi is at green, the shunt must be ON. This last situation causes an issue with JT S7/S8 stocks in that they SPAD when passing the "red" shunt. This is a royal pain as it is the most likely situation, and should not cause a SPAD. Only passing a main signal at red should so do (and correctly does). JT realized this was an issue when developing their Met route and their solution (sic) was to create a gadget (known as TAB) that had to be placed with its link prior to the shunt signal to somehow prevent the train SPADing. Signals pass information to each other about trains approaching, passing, etc. A typical message is "train approaching" sent from a signal as a train passes it, to another signal in advance. This causes the signal in advance to evaluate the path set, block occupancy, etc. and change its aspect if needed to reflect conditions prior to the train 's arrival.
In the case of the approach to ECM EB, the train passing the home signal should cause a message to the shunt and starter signals in advance to check their state/aspect. The semi (and co-actor in this case) do so correctly, but the shunt does not - it stays ON, even though the path is set into the depot. It used to work fine, until we had to add the JT TAB gadget to fix an issue caused by the S-stocks SPADding. But now the shunt does not work as expected. Damned if we do, etc. Note that the color light shunts seen in various sidings do not cause issues; however we wanted to be accurate with specific shunt signals in use on the DR and thus chose to use the disc shunts.
Summary: The JT S-Stocks SPAD passing a JT disc shunt co-located with a JTLU mainline signal, and the JT-provided "fix" causes the JT shunt disc to no longer behave correctly. Hopefully one day we will all solve this, as it IS possible I have the various signals/TAB link0 sequence wrong :-) Were it me, I'd have fixed the train LUA code. VDL provided stocks don't SPAD shunts ;-)
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Post by dandiedinmont on Jun 30, 2020 8:35:15 GMT
Eddie and Jimi, thanks so much for your detailed responses to my question. After reading about the signalling issues, I'm even more amazed at your dedication and skill in producing such a great route!
Craig.
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pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Jul 2, 2020 16:03:06 GMT
Oh dear, I am sorry to bother you again ... but here goes!
In the scenario "The Long and Short Rounder" I just can't seem to be able to load/unload passengers at West Kensington. I've tried the scenario a couple of times, and encountered the problem on both runs.
I don't think it's a problem with the route, as I can load/unload passengers there in other scenarios without any issues. So, on that basis, it must be the scenario itself. However, I can't see anything wrong with the stop at West Kensington.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Tim
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Post by Jimi on Jul 2, 2020 16:11:54 GMT
Tim - I don't initially see any issues, but there are 2 stops at WKN - one in each direction. Are you having issues with the first (EB P2) or second (WB P1)? I assume you are saying you hit "T" and nothing happens? Task does not complete? Do doors open? Do you hear the related announcement? What happens if you ignore it and proceed to the next stop?
UPDATE:
I just ran it, and did not have an issue with either stop at WKN. However, I do see some changes in AI behavior that are likely a result of the v2.2 track changes around the GRD reverse road. I had a long wait on the OLY road waiting for a train ahead to get there and return (single-track). Next there was a log jam getting into HSK bay the 2nd time with 2 trains ahead as I waited at Triangle and then again at HSK approach. I also did NOT get a green departing HSK3 bay and had to TAB (you should NEVER need to TAB with these signals). However then continuing through ECT I had no issues at WKN.
Can you please provide more detail as to what you see and do around HSK and OLY, etc.? Especially anything that appears unexpected or incorrect. I sense there's something adrift from our original scenario design but the signaling is designed to handle off-timetable events if an AI train or player is earlier or later than expected. Other than my TAB the scenario behaved as expected, although I don't recall quite the AI train log jams previously, so it is *possible* the timing of some has changed and that has a knock-on effect.
This isn't a 30 sec fix this time - sorry. More info needed to help us diagnose.
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Post by Eddie on Jul 2, 2020 20:19:20 GMT
I'll have a look at this one in the Scenario Editor. It is possible there are timetabled events that are not achievable with the changes we made at GRD and related portals.
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pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Jul 3, 2020 10:50:07 GMT
First of all many apologies for such an incomplete description of the problem in the first place. It is at West Kensington platform 1 that I have the problem.
I have re-run the scenario, with the same result, but have tried to make notes on what happens along the way.
I have the wait outside OLY for Service 8 to trundle off. The wait is from 05:06 until 05:11
I also have the jam outside HSK
I depart HSK at 05:24 for the trip back to Richmond. I don't have to TAB past any signal.
I depart EC4 at 05:27
I arrive at WK1 at 05:29. The doors don't open (and there's no door sound).
I wait for a bit, and eventually set off for BC - and get an X by the WK stop.
I saved the game when I was leaving EC4 - would it be of any help if I sent that to you?
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pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Jul 3, 2020 11:47:15 GMT
Curiouser and curiouser!
I tried again, but starting from my saved game, and didn't have any problems at West Kensington. In fact, however hard I tried I just couldn't get the doors NOT to open.
So, I think this will have to go down as one of TrainSim's quirks.
All the best,
Tim
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Post by Xavier on Jul 3, 2020 12:17:54 GMT
Curiouser and curiouser! I tried again, but starting from my saved game, and didn't have any problems at West Kensington. In fact, however hard I tried I just couldn't get the doors NOT to open. So, I think this will have to go down as one of TrainSim's quirks. All the best, Tim In very remote cases I have found that if you're in a scenario situation that becomes reasonably demanding in memory or resources, then certain functions like doors might randomly drop out.
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Post by Jimi on Jul 3, 2020 13:42:22 GMT
Likewise I've discovered that on the VERY odd occasion that things don't work as they should (e.g. a signal stuck at red), then saving and restoring the state can usually lead to success. My theory is that for unknown reason the signal was not triggered to evaluate its state, but the restore (restart) causes all signals to go through that setup and thus clears the issue. I can't currently visualize details of the state whereby doors don't open, but I'm strongly inclined to believe Xavier's thoughts. TS quirk, as you say :-)
Even though you now seem to be OK, I am investigating the scenario further over the next few days as I get time. It's not behaving quite as we intended, likely due to our v2.2 work at GRD causing any AI reverse moves to take longer and thus change the complexion and timing of intended meets and conflict situations. The wait for the OLY train is longer than we had intended (5 mins vs. 2 mins), and likewise the mess waiting at HSK. The scenario still "works", but although potentially realistic I don't feel waiting undue lengths of time is interesting to the player (many will wait a minute or so at a red and then TAB!) and I will try to improve that. I still have our design notes re expected timings of player and various competing AI, so I'll dig around and see what can be done.
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Post by Eddie on Jul 3, 2020 20:31:23 GMT
I found an issue with Service 7 in the SE. It has fully timetabled stops at all stations and 6 of them were showing timings in red, which means that it is unachievable ( probably due to the changes we made at GRD ) . I took the timetabling ticks out, let the dispatcher recalculate timings, then put them back in. All timings are now achievable so the scenario has no errors anymore. Jimi will test it out when he gets time and see it that helps at all.
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Post by Hyde Park Corner on Jul 3, 2020 23:57:40 GMT
First of all many apologies for such an incomplete description of the problem in the first place. It is at West Kensington platform 1 that I have the problem. I have re-run the scenario, with the same result, but have tried to make notes on what happens along the way. I have the wait outside OLY for Service 8 to trundle off. The wait is from 05:06 until 05:11 I also have the jam outside HSK I depart HSK at 05:24 for the trip back to Richmond. I don't have to TAB past any signal. I depart EC4 at 05:27 I arrive at WK1 at 05:29. The doors don't open (and there's no door sound). I wait for a bit, and eventually set off for BC - and get an X by the WK stop. I saved the game when I was leaving EC4 - would it be of any help if I sent that to you? I have twice experienced the same scenario issue that pops described - the doors will not open at WKN Westbound. I attempted various stop locations along the platform to no avail. I will try saving a game before WKN, with the hope that the door issue is remedied. Thank-you for researching.
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Post by Eddie on Jul 4, 2020 13:55:36 GMT
Once we identify the problem and fix it, we will issue a small patch which will be incorporated into the main installer for new users. Thanks for the report guys, we did test a few of the old scenarios before the new update, but this one slipped through the net.
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Post by madnessracer14 on Jul 21, 2020 0:20:44 GMT
Hi, first of all, i would like to say what an amazing route this is, i absolutely love this route and everything you can do with it, i straight got the Emma clarke scenario pack to go with the Top man pack. also looking forward to Phase 3 and anything in the future too.
so far i have had one issue and i would like some help please, The scenario; T053 'easy does it' GRD - EBY in the D78 stock.
When it starts, the train is between Gloucester Road and Earls court and I have to reverse back in to Gloucester Road to pick up the first passengers. We then Depart on time, however when we arrive at the next station Earls court. the start signal is at red and doesn't clear, I once waited for 20 mins in the platform and it stayed red. even cheekily tried the tab to get permission to pass at danger, but of course that did not work. any help would be appreciated please.
also just last night discovered something else, on the scenario; Piccadilly Heritage 38TS NEA - GRD - ECMDT, the doors refuse to open at Ravenscourt Park, Platform 2 on the return leg. please help
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Post by Xavier on Jul 21, 2020 13:19:24 GMT
I can't comment on the T053 Scenario issue but it sounds like the player train starting position needs to be moved so that you're not in the wrong section, which might lead AI trains to change behaviour.
As for the 38TS scenario, that's probably my fault as I removed the passenger alighting capability on the Piccadilly platform at RPK because it interfered with the District platform. And so we'll need to update that scenario eventually.
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Post by madnessracer14 on Jul 21, 2020 17:44:00 GMT
Thank you for your quick response. I will look forward to the updates when they are ready but there is still hours of scenarios for me to try.
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Post by Jimi on Jul 22, 2020 0:26:21 GMT
The T053 scenario was fixed and an updated version posted about a month ago.
The updated version (and another fixed sceanrio) are (for now) available in Ed's DropBox. I've repeated the relevant post below, with the DropBox link at the bottom.
<repeated from the bug reports thread>
Thanks for the bug report, as Jimi has said somehow the 2.2 kit build stopped this scenario working. During the small fix needed he also found the Heritage Railtour with the Standard Stock scenario folder was somehow buried inside the Easy Does It folder.
So there are two fixes bundled here into a 7zip file. In the zip you will find 2 scenario folders: f609882b-... = Easy Does It ff8a1b63-... = Std Stock heritage Tour
Download the 7zip file from the DropBox (link below) and unzip the folders/files into your <TS>/Content/Routes/df59cee1-........./Scenarios folder overwriting existing files.
We're hosting this on Ed's DropBox until we can build a new hot patch and new installers.
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Post by madnessracer14 on Jul 22, 2020 13:48:12 GMT
Hi, Thank you very much, I've only been playing train sim for a couple of months and still pretty new, thank you for your help and looking forward to playing this route more
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Post by Jimi on Jul 22, 2020 18:26:53 GMT
Very welcome! Don't hesitate to ask questions or give us feedback or provide info re possible bugs.
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Post by madnessracer14 on Jul 22, 2020 19:35:20 GMT
Hi, i'm really sorry but I have discovered another problem with the scenario; Second half phase 2 timetabled D78 AI. i love the length of the scenario. but on the HSK to Richmond part, i have been failed twice and unable to complete this scenario due to on the approach to Stamford Brook platform 1, the signal protecting the platform is at red, it approves you to pass the signal at danger, tripcock gets activated. i reset tripcock and proceed. I just depart on time. I then get to the next station, Turnham green platform 1. its the same again, the signal protecting the platform is at red. approved to pass signal at danger again and the tripcock gets tripped. after resetting it again and pull into turnham green. and then it fails you for being 2mins late due to the time lost. any help would be greatly appreciated. i have searching in earlier threads about it but could not find a fix.
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pops
Station Staff
Posts: 15
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Post by pops on Jul 23, 2020 8:39:09 GMT
Hi, i'm really sorry but I have discovered another problem with the scenario; Second half phase 2 timetabled D78 AI. i love the length of the scenario. but on the HSK to Richmond part, i have been failed twice and unable to complete this scenario due to on the approach to Stamford Brook platform 1, the signal protecting the platform is at red, it approves you to pass the signal at danger, tripcock gets activated. i reset tripcock and proceed. I just depart on time. I then get to the next station, Turnham green platform 1. its the same again, the signal protecting the platform is at red. approved to pass signal at danger again and the tripcock gets tripped. after resetting it again and pull into turnham green. and then it fails you for being 2mins late due to the time lost. any help would be greatly appreciated. i have searching in earlier threads about it but could not find a fix. I had exactly the same problem. I'm fairly sure that the solution is to NOT try to tab past the signal, but to wait a few moments for it to turn green, and then proceed.
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Post by madnessracer14 on Jul 23, 2020 13:37:57 GMT
Hi, Thanks, I tried that and the signal never cleared. so still stuck at that signal
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Post by Jimi on Jul 23, 2020 15:52:40 GMT
Thanks for the detailed report. I wrote that scenario a long time ago but did check it against recent builds. I will re-check it in the editor in case there re now some issues with AI not able to make times, etc. Then I'll give it a run and see what happens. Some of the older scenarios *may* be suspect against the new route builds, if they use certain areas that we modified or extended. In theory the TS Dispatcher should take care of such issues and allow the scenario to run, but... One further thought. If you happen t run it again, please save the scenario at SBK, then quit (ESC, Quit), then run it but *resume* from the saved location. It is possible the re-init will reset the signal states. Either way I will take a look and figure out the issue...
Oh, and please don't apologize for bug reports. We do test things extensively, but Mr Murphy says we may not catch everything. You report it, we fix it, everyone wins :-)
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